Hsat

[Maggs]

I was wondering if anyone had any novel views with regards to the hsat monks restriction that has been in place for 4 years now (so, I concede, may be better as part of a nostalgia debate).

From what I can make out, the change was made in respose to some multi-guild cheating by Spiral/Quant et al, and by monks using an infinity feature. Some also claim that it was made to try and balance the monks guild with the Chefs and so get more of the latter.

My opinion on the situation is predictable I suppose.

If guild powers need to be limited (in any guild), then the place to do this has to be the guild. The change to the monks involves hacking monk specific cludges into many of the common game objects. This is against all the rules of OO coding in the first instance. and does little to create an enjoyable guild to play.

I've always found it odd that, in these days where fast connections/clients are the norm and healing is easier than ever as a result, the monks guild should be so culled.

It also relies on party play, but that is another discussion.

M

[Yavathol]

I have to admit, looking back on what it used to be like to party with monks, I do miss it.  It's not as if having a monk in the party made one invincible, although many people died while under that assumption.  Still, monks were still quite useful to have around and were always a welcome addition to any party I was in.

Monk still would be a great asset to any of my parties, of course; but, given the new exp rules for parties it is quite difficult to find a monk that is willing to party.  Let's be honest.  Monks don't have much reason to party anymore, and most of them barely feel a desire to play.  It has never been an easy guild to play and that has only become more difficult. Now when there are monks online, they may very well be trying to quest to advance grade or playing solo so they can earn some experience as well.  I think since the second change has taken effect I have had monks in my parties about all of two times.  

Granted, there may be some other guilds that are percieved as "harder," but there is no guild that currently requires the fanatical devotion, tenaciousness and patience that it takes to advance far in monks.  I think that after the Basalt Keep attacks disappeared, so did the last of the regularly playing/partying monks.  Having recently partied with a monk, and a rather high ranking one at that, we noticed that the exp earning potential was about 3 or 4 to 1 against.  Talk about slow to develop!

Yeah, they should probably at least get the ability to heal others for a reasonable period of time back, might just revive the guild some.

[Kherec]

The problem with monks are the need for herbs these days.

Back in the old days, you could pick a pouch and then head off and actually do something, before having to return to pick a new pouch.

Today, not only do you need tons of herbs (unless you party with a khorne who only needs hp) and you hit healing sat almost immediately when you need to heal both hp and sp.

As for monks in general, I stopped playing mine since I was used to being a self-sufficient monk. I picked some herbs, chanted some spells and went on sprees ridding the world of evil. While I can still do that, it's dreadfully less efficient these days and partying only nets me money, which I already have ... so the only time I take the monk out for a spin is when a good friend wants to party (and he'll thus make up for the lack of benefit of playing with his or her good humour and nice company)

[Maggs]

Yes, its in a sorry state.

I think the tendancy of players to use a monk char as a utility char to help other players PK/Quest/Kill big stuff/Gain guild status has always been there. I think it contributed, to some extent, to the downfall of the guild.

It can't be a solution, however, to render the guild to be _only_ worth playing on a utility basis as you suggested.

Its very sad for me because I actually care,

Maggs

[Kymn]

In spite of high risk of stating the obvious...

Being the weak tank that I am, I tend max the health saturation pretty fast, besides buring huge amount of herbs (ask Melvin )
The best solution given the current state for me has been to have the monk take hits to flatten out the health saturation.

[Maggs]

I agree that monks should be more cunning in their approach. Most miss the waters ability. I think that is mainly because they seem expensive to make when starting out. They now cost me 9Sp to make, and give 20HP+SP, which can't be bad as portable healing.

For me, its more the frustration on hitting a brick wall - and having no way of doing anything about it. That and the fact that I have played for 2 hours for 30K XP.

I'm not that keen on fronting fights, personally. I also find that most fighters like to control the fights they are in.

I have suggested having karma plaques or something, but Brom didn't seem all that keen. Its not really the sort of guild that needs to be inter-competative, I agree - but at least it would give something to obtain if we didn't get XP.

Perhaps some DI/HED type levels may be more appropriate?

It could (and probably will) also be argued that I have reached my 'Game Over' sign (in the guild at least). But I'm not even 100 days yet - how old is Kymn?

M

[Kymn]

I think that support spells like healing and wards in a party should reward xp, it's easy enough to code, if more than me voice that idea it might happen something on that front.

Kymn is 79 days as we speak, but I'm getting fairly close to my guilds last grade. After that though I can work a good while in modifying my spells. then I don't know what to do, perhaps stuff like treasure hunter club, brotherhood of the heart, quests etc can keep one occupied for a while. But then there is only paragonlevels left which are not very exciting.

A great end game for all guilds, in my opinion, would be the griefless PK I'd like to see in nanny, but then perhaps monks won't allowed to playerkill anyways in the unlikely event of it being implemented in nanny.
The PK club could be modified to give points to all party members in the same room when a kill is made, so that support chars can get a piece of the PK pie.

Anyways, some sort of end game club besides paragons would be nice.

[Snafu]

As regarding PK, I remember when my mage would heal knights as they were PKing across green and other areas. We may not have been allowed to PK in Mages, but we helped in any way we could. *snicker evilly*

/Snafu

[Qwer]

I think that support spells like healing and wards in a party should reward xp, it's easy enough to code, if more than me voice that idea it might happen something on that front.

Doesn't healing give xp? I knew it did.

[Yavathol]

Doesn't healing give xp?

Nope  
Not for some time now.  Experience is based on the amount of damage that the individual does and doesn't really even take the party effort into account.  
Certain guilds have extra advantages in parties now and will monopolize the experience (My own guild included).  As much as I appreciate circles and know that they help Sims with grades.... as much as I appreciate the healing of a monk.... I know that the party is lopsided about 10xp to 1 in my favor, worse if there are more members.  
Of course, A vamp will out pace a knight too, so monks and sims are way down there on the scale.  

Someone should point out to Brom that Masters is now actually easier to advance in then Sims or Monks... maybe they should be called the "Not quite good enough to be a monk" guild  

[Carrion]

Someone should point out to Brom that Masters is now actually easier to advance in then Sims or Monks... maybe they should be called the "Not quite good enough to be a monk" guild  

Heh, true, but only when you take partying into account, right? As I have never played in parties I don't really know much about it, apart from using them to have a free line to myself, or (in the past) have a message to trigger every kill I make (even if it's by a spell and I didn't get the 'You killed...' message). But then, really, play a master in a party??? That's just plain lame.

[Kymn]

come to think of it, my master has never been in a party as far as I can remember

[Yavathol]

Heh, true, but only when you take partying into account, right?

Actually, I'm not so sure.  I remember playing a master and it didn't have QP or alignment requirements when I did.  Weren't any equipment restrictions either, so although Monks (and Sims too) may get some powers to use, they lose so many other things.  

By the way, I never played my Master in a party, but I wonder if it would even work.  I can see the party leader heading off and catching a message about not wanting to do that right now.  

[Maggs]

Qwer is right, Brom did change the healing so that it rewarded some XP. It hardly compensates though.

Monks can kill alone. I take the view that any attack/defence combination
has a set of monsters with its name on them. With my monk, I can head
off to Mirage's area for example, and kill all the guards and the vampire
without having to leave the castle. No knight could do that.

Does the game really need another band of saintly killers though?

The game was a lot more varied, and enjoyable to play, in 2000. Thats not just a statement based on nostalgia, there were choices available that are no longer there as enjoyable play styles:

- to PK;
- to party;
- to heal;
- to defend BK.

and probably a load more.

M

[Kymn]

heard something about BK attack it being back up again a while back, Mami posted a note about it on the announcement board anyways, but perhaps it lack participants