Stealing kills

[Maggs]

I agree that the use of shape can, in some circumstances, be overly
burdensome. Thats the case with Khornes certainly, and maybe darks
also.

When I play those quick styles I don't use shape in most circumstances.
I only use it if I see someone around the area, or I have a suspicion that
someone _may_ be killing the thing I'm after.

If I attack something that is damaged, I move on where possible. This
policy can come unstuck when the monster is in dep, but it doesn't
happen very often at all. Its a consequence of the admin making KIP
so difficult to maintain I'm afraid.

M

[Yavathol]

I can certainly understand why a khorne would be racing around and not wanting to take the time to run a "shape" on every creature, but as you said, the rare times when it is in "deplorable" shape to begin with make it possible to break off in most cases.
I'm really not certain if darks have the same difficulty.  With Khorne's they must kill that fast.  Simply wanting to should not negate one's responsibility to the rest of the community it seems.  And I have certainly seen plenty of darks who do check shapes.  

There are certainly instances where claims and signs can not be left behind on kills as well.  I can think of a handful of monsters while I write this sentence that can not have knight's claims laid down.  I also know of other circumstances when claims can not be placed, at least by knights, due to other factors.  
Of course, there are some kills I never claim at all because, historically, you start those kills and you are almost guaranteed that someone else will finish it if they know.  There have actually been cases of players who simply roamed popular kills looking to killsteal.  
Personally, I've found that simply staying on some of the less travelled paths keeps my kills safe for the most part, but sometimes I like to kill the same things as everyone else.

I know that kill stealing will be an ever present ill in the game, and I wouldn't complain about the ocassional accident.  But for a kill stealer to tell me it's my fault for not marking my claim clearly enough is completely unacceptable and, I can assume, only a result of absolute ego-centric beliefs.

[Maggs]

I'm not really sure about where Fenix stands on this, whether he
is saying that no mark means a damaged kill is fair game, or that
he would stop fighting a damaged kill when he realized - its just that a
mark would have helped him - hence the frustration.

M

[Fenix]

But for a kill stealer to tell me it's my fault for not marking my claim clearly enough is completely unacceptable and, I can assume, only a result of absolute ego-centric beliefs.

When you do an "exa" on me do you see that fancy Camelot sign anywhere on me? Well you DON'T so yeah maybe i'm ego-centric.
No pity or compassion for those who don't even follow some simple rules. No mark no claim and it goes both ways.

[Yavathol]

I'm not really sure about where Fenix stands on this, whether he
is saying that no mark means a damaged kill is fair game, or that
he would stop fighting a damaged kill when he realized - its just that a
mark would have helped him - hence the frustration.

M

Well, actually I think he made it clear that he doesn't care if it's damaged.  Not that it matters.  I find that for the most part his rantings are just empty wind without the substance of real thought.  
When one abandons logic, facts and completely disregards others it becomes impossible to have any meaningful dialogue with them.

There are plenty of others who have raised the point of the "accidental" kill steal pages ago, however, and I do believe several of us recognized that such cases were a different situation entirely.  Certainly if a kill is left when it is deplorable there is always a chance that a Khorne trying to maintain KIP will be coming through, and that first hit could do it in easily.  Such things happen.  My main beef, and I think it was Carrion's too, was that there have been a handful of players that basically make a career of stealing other people's kills and that anything even approaching that detracts from the game for all.

[Fenix]

My main beef, and I think it was Carrion's too, was that there have been a handful of players that basically make a career of stealing other people's kills and that anything even approaching that detracts from the game for all.

That handful of players are indeed out of line ... my kills were stolen too by vamps or khornes and i learned to mark them. When u steal a marked kill there's no excuse for you and those players will eventualy get punished. But we all encourage them by offering free kills on plate!!! It's obvious...a mark free kill it's an available kill...noone can punish me for taking it. So ... keep shaping others kills while yours will get stolen    Nice isn't it?

[Maggs]

I'm afraid that I don't find your arguments at all compelling. To say
that 'no one can punish you for....' is flawed. The admin can punish
anyone, and my guess is that they are motivated to do that because of
complaints they receive. At that point, I wouldn't give much for the
chances of your 'marking' argument saving the complainee.

I also never subscribed to the argument that it was Ok to steal because
you have been robbed, even if its against the kill stealer. I reacon that
if I took that option, then I would be as bad as the stealer themselves,
and would be treated by the admin as such.

If someone compromises the enjoyment that you have for the game,
complain to the admin and let them sort it out. Thats their job,

M

[Yavathol]

I reacon that
if I took that option, then I would be as bad as the stealer themselves,
and would be treated by the admin as such.

All of that is well put!  Of course, there are some people that just don't seem to care how low they sink.  They run around with blinders on not realizing that they are that handful of players previously referred to.  Of course, they also complain a lot themselves ...  which is kind of funny.

After all, if you make the weather, you shouldn't complain about getting stuck in the rainstorm.  

[ladychris]

 You know i'm right...if you mark your kill you make things easier for everyone.

Yeah, so the poor killstealer doesnt even need to shape.  
A marking sign is a clear statement monster is in poor condition, with the added "fun" of knowing whom it belongs as well.
So why am i supposed to make killstealer life easier?  

Btw, i very seldom complain for a stolen kill either, only if that monster was of particular worth for any of my chars... But seeing (as it happened recently) a lvl 15 druid (none of my chars, just a new friend) who, despite his not so good damage potential, decides to go for balrog and spends more than 1 hr to have it to depl, just to have it stolen at the last moment makes me rise in anger...  

[Sharky]

The fact that marked kills (especially kills marked with signs) aren't actually preventing killsteling makes Fenix's arguments kinda pointless, doesn't it? I have encountered quite a few situations when the sign was there doing it's job while the monster was long gone.

Note to Ladychris: advise your friend not to use barkskin and to have as few wooden items on as possible when going for monsters with fire attacks.  

[Fenix]

The admin can punish
anyone, and my guess is that they are motivated to do that because of
complaints they receive.

Especially if those complaints come from a "friend"? That's so true and sad in the same time.
Marking kills won't eradicate the kill stealing problem, only diminish it.
Now it seems i have no chance of convincing you but keep one thing in mind...you and the admins : Don't ask someone else to be fair unless YOU are fair first! I guess this makes sense doesn't it?
None of my marked kills were stolen only unmarked ones. Stop exagerating noone makes a kind of life stealing marked kills...i'm sure he won't survive a couple of attempts.
But the problem isn't the ones stealing marked kills...it's your commodity not to mark them  

[Maggs]

To be honest, I think that if a monk marks a kill then no one _can_ kill
it. Barbarella kicked bottom.

Still, it shows that marks can be abused. I once killed a marked
ceremonial guard (undamaged) with a khorne, when I saw that the
two knights that marked it were killing the Paragon. Strangely enough,
they never complained

I'm not quite sure why you think that I'm unfair though. I can be grumpy
thats for sure, could be friendlier at times, but I never try and make
the game less fun for others. Nanny is a multi-player game, if I want
to play alone I can load NWN locally or something.

M

[Qwer]

USE THE GAME's FEATURES!!! and understand it's not my duty to "shape" it's your duty to MARK  

Gee, by your own logic then you should use the game feature Shape instead of this lame attempt to justify yourself by hiding behind claiming signs.  Your point doesn't even make sense when we extend it out.  Let's see - as an example:

the knight runes remember the stealer as a proof of stealing

And this somehow deters killstealing how?  Let's be honest, there have been plenty of players that found such a declaration (claimed kills) to be the very ones they wanted.  So, sometimes Khorne's signs, Knights runes, and any other signs out there that don't actually damage the stealer can actually attract attention.  After all, if someone steals my claimed kill, just how exactly is knowing who it was result in them being punished for it?

Regardless of whether a kill is marked has no impact on whether the kill stealer is punished.  Let's be honest about that right up front.  They aren't punished.  

As for the assertion that it isn't your duty - fine, you don't want to take responsibility for such actions, we can't make you - but we sure will continue this thread to talk about it and how it hurts the game.  Don't like us discussing it, I guess there are two options:
1) Don't read this thread
2) Don't steal kills - meaning any kill started regardless of signs

On a side note - I don't really think the guy who started a thread entitled "time wasting machine" should accuse anyone else of having a "lame POINTLESS discussion."  It really stinks of hypocrisy at the very least.

Without marking you don't (shouldn't) have any right to claim the monster. How should I know it was yours. perhaps you're lying - knights lie and steal also occasionally they just can't admit.

It's always tough when someone steals a ceremony kill but that's it. I try not to steal ceremony kills because it can be hard to get another one (especially for a n00b).

This mud is made to be newbie-friendly, not fun. These two are not always the same thing.

[Yavathol]

Without marking you don't (shouldn't) have any right to claim the monster. How should I know it was yours. perhaps you're lying - knights lie and steal also occasionally they just can't admit.

This mud is made to be newbie-friendly, not fun. These two are not always the same thing.

Don't you hate jumping in late and not taking the time to get caught up.  I won't rehash the same arguments, they're still archived.  No need to waste my time with it.  As for knights stealing kills - You won't find a large number of serial kill-stealers in the guild, we actually do something about it.  

And as to the whole newbie-friendly vs fun argument:
If you don't think the Mud is fun, then why do you play?

[Maggs]

and, can I add, what distinguishes a ceremony kill?

I'm just waiting for someone to claim that if a cultist tries to reserve
a well known kill then its their fault when it gets stolen.

I guess we are all just asking for it by playing the game and having
the affrontary to attack monsters on certain peoples kill list.

I just wonder sometimes why such people play a multi-player games
when there are plenty of single player games around where their
chosen kills will always be there.

Maggs (is confused)