Stealing kills

[Carrion]

She then tried to justify her deed by saying I was playing wrong because I was not of high enough rank to be killing in that area, and should have left it for her…

Geez, if that person was above the age of 12 he/she has some real problems I'd say... Or was perhaps roleplaying a little cry-baby...

[Qwer]

I don't think that killing a monster that blocks the way to another means that you have the right to kill the other one too, like it was claimed. I had this problem when it was obvious that I was going to the big one (for loot) and a knight killed it. So it's just a matter of habitude I guess. As a knight, I would never do that, or if yes, I would apologize and solve the problem sopmehow (I mean if I would be sure that I was mistaking and the other one should be the 'legal' owner).
I have chars that don't really mind to steal kills, I do think that it's a matter of roleplaying. The ones that say it isn't are or too lamers with their seconds to get somt other kills instead of whining or they just didn't play lately.
How would a dark or a vampire look to apologize to a knight, or a druid? Hell, my dark fought darks, and I didn't feel ashamed about it, even if it isn't a common practice. No char should steal but there are some that can do it once in a while. I have chars that never check shape, and perhaps if I do see that the monster is like, in the first hb, fair shape, I just continue. If I bothered to attack it I won't leave. In the worst case I just give the loot back or even the loot twice or 3 times in money, but I might just ignore the whiner. In many cases I just finish the kill and go for another one, and noone complains. It depends on the player.
I don't whine endlessly when someone steals a kill from me. I might let him/her/it know that I know about it and it wasn't nice but I don't whine about it. It would sound pretty weird, especially with certain characters (in certain guilds, I mean).
I have 'knightly' chars but I also have, perhaps not bad ones, but ones that are pretty selfish, and don't really care about others, that don't help others - depends on the problem, of course.  Chars that don't make xp for people, and don't give money away, or don't answer silly questions. I might send people with questions to knights or druids, however.

By the way, as I remember reading of Masters, they should be people who are so bored of Nanny, who find other guilds so easy. Then tell me that it's not lame a master that asks others to make xp for them. When, as far as I know, xp is the only thing a master needs to advance. I might be wrong but anyway if not the only but I think it's the main thing. Just remembered this, got pretty pissed off about this thing...

[ladychris]

I don't think that killing a monster that blocks the way to another means that you have the right to kill the other one too,

Read carefully Qwer... "Since you cannot reach this monster without first having killed the troll, and the lizardman was injured before she started..." it was not only the blocking monster gone, but she had started the other one too, which makes it killstealing (or at least attempted killstealing).
And no, i dont really think that a dark apologizing to a knight should be considered out of role playing... Respect for other players should not depend on the guild you are playing in.
And another thing... if you need that kill for some reason (xp, rank, blood, head...) having the loot back or even thrice its value in money wont compensate for the loss imho.  

[Qwer]

I know it wasn't the case, I just wanted to say my oppinion.

Ok I'll just skip that part next time.  

You don't have to accept the money, but some people are usually content with it as it's better than nothing, especially lower lvl/guild lvl chars. Last time I gave 20k back as I was angry, as I needed the kill for alignment. But hey, shit does happen. I searched for some other kill.

I am talking of respect or disrespect to certain guilds, or titles, not players.

I've never liked RTs (I mean with my knights), as I've quit knights once because one of them acting pretty childish and lame, did something I wouldn't especially as an RT. After some arguing everyone decided that I am to blame, even Gurk, so I left the guild.
That knight is not an RT anymore, he's an elder knight, but somewhat active, even if not with that char, and I couldn't forget this issue after how much, like 3 years, or perhaps more. He forgot it for sure, and everyone else, but I couldn't.
So I do think that RTs are usually too self-content, and they abuse their powers many times. Like, if you don't want to be punished, be VERY careful what you say to an RT, and never argue with them even if you think you're right; they will prove you're wrong and will punish you. And guildheads never were to serve justice, they just defend their people no matter what, or at least almost. There.  
Anyway that was pretty shocking for me as I was expecting more common sense from an RT, at least to act as knightly as I usually am, with my lame knights that never made it to the exclusive club of RTs, or even a champion.

[Carrion]

By the way, as I remember reading of Masters, they should be people who are so bored of Nanny, who find other guilds so easy. Then tell me that it's not lame a master that asks others to make xp for them. When, as far as I know, xp is the only thing a master needs to advance. I might be wrong but anyway if not the only but I think it's the main thing. Just remembered this, got pretty pissed off about this thing...

Now THAT was lame...  My master would never ask anyone for any help, and he started out from scratch in the guild, just like my other chars in their respective guild...

[Qwer]

When playing a khorne I often get a chance to carry people around for exp, usually low lvl chars. I usually accept and make xp for people. But for a master, I didn't.. I mean, I just gave him a tip, like to join druids, or knights, or some guild where he can get easily help in case he can't manage alone. :p
I would've done the same with any character of mine.

[Yavathol]

I've never liked RTs (I mean with my knights), as I've quit knights once because one of them acting pretty childish and lame, did something I wouldn't especially as an RT. After some arguing everyone decided that I am to blame, even Gurk, so I left the guild.
That knight is not an RT anymore, he's an elder knight, but somewhat active, even if not with that char, and I couldn't forget this issue after how much, like 3 years, or perhaps more. He forgot it for sure, and everyone else, but I couldn't.
So I do think that RTs are usually too self-content, and they abuse their powers many times. Like, if you don't want to be punished, be VERY careful what you say to an RT, and never argue with them even if you think you're right; they will prove you're wrong and will punish you. And guildheads never were to serve justice, they just defend their people no matter what, or at least almost. There.  
Anyway that was pretty shocking for me as I was expecting more common sense from an RT, at least to act as knightly as I usually am, with my lame knights that never made it to the exclusive club of RTs, or even a champion.

You know, its quite funny, but I've noticed over the years that every time a knight does something that others might think is outside the code of honour, they invariably have some excuse about why they were right and everyone else was wrong.  I guess it's just a matter of perspective, much like the kill stealer suggesting that they are roleplaying.  I won't bother to actually offer the rest of my opinion on this here, I mean after all, this is supposed to be a thread about Kill Stealing, not "Those Evil RTs are all out to get me and they aren't even as good as I am."  
I am quite certain that if I offered my observations you would simply lump me in the same category anyway.  For the record, I will normally make myself available to listen to such complaints privately - and some people have even taken me up on that offer.  I might add that they have, in most cases, left satisfied.

Back to the actual thread:
Role-playing is all good and should be encouraged, however, let's step back and be a little bit honest.  There is absolutely no good excuse to steal kills.  Role playing or not.  If the best a player can come up for with your characters "role" is to steal kills when available, be selfish and generally a bit of a snot then I think the whole concept is lost on that player.  I've seen characters who never actually speak, although the same player's other characters do, they find ways to communicate around it when playing the mute, though.  That's an interesting quirk to give a character.  Just one example of many I've noticed.

As for certain guilds not apologizing to members of other guilds? Are you kidding?  I may not party with darks, or even sell to them on the Trade line, but there are quite a few who have my absolute respect and I would never be so disrespectful as to completely ignore them.  By the same token, you might be quite suprised how many darks I have had to help settle issues with when an overzealous knight accidently steals one of their kills.  I may not, in roleplay, approve of their guild, but I refuse to outright disrespect the players simply because they are in it.

[Kherec]

Being an arse isn't really roleplaying ... being 'Evil' does not equal 'arse' (as in stealing kills and spitting in people's faces).

This comes from the simple reason that there is a limit you can't pass, harassment etc.

Besides, a good roleplayer doesn't have to resort to first-grade 'arse' behaviour to play evil, talk about lack of imagination

[Kherec]

And about Masters begging for xp parties ... talk about insulting the Guildmaster of that guild, and the whole idea of the guild.

Whenever Masters ask for xp, I tell them they've picked the wrong guild (same if they ask for money).

[Qwer]

You know, its quite funny, but I've noticed over the years that every time a knight does something that others might think is outside the code of honour, they invariably have some excuse about why they were right and everyone else was wrong.

I never said I did something.

I never said killstealing is part of role-playing. I probably did steal at least one kill with every char (well almost), I think it happened to one or two of my knights too. I don't go after people to take their kills because I cannot find my own ones. I just act differently after, depending the char. And sometimes I don't leave when seeing the low shape, as I have already started fighting.
You just misinterpreted the cause and the effect.

[Sharky]

You just misinterpreted the cause and the effect.

I don't think he did.... the way you presented things it appeared as though it's ok to killsteal as long as you have the "I was just role-playing" excuse.

I have chars that don't really mind to steal kills, I do think that it's a matter of roleplaying.

I guess I should just log in with my viking and steal all the kills I can, right? I don't think there's a guild with a better, let's say, motivation for stealling kills than the plundering vikings... and if anyone says anything... I was role-playing!

You were the one who said in another note that nanny was dying or something like that.... Well, bad attitude doesn't help, does it? If you're rude, angry, disrespectful, an 'arse' as Kherec well put it what will it accomplish? How would you feel if your first experinces on a mud would be miserable, if anyone treated you bad because you are weak and unexperinced? It may sound crazy to MANY people, but hell, I'll say it: newbies deserve their share of respect... They are the future players, the ones who'll populate the mud... if we drive them away then what will happen to nany? And this is here not for the many players who like helping newbies and try to make them feel as welcome as possible. It's for those who forgot where they started from, who forgot that they were once newbies and how it felt like back then.

OK... I'll just stop here. No use getting so excited over something that'll probably never happen.

[Yavathol]

Here here!

Well said Sharky!

I am now playing with the fourth generation of Nanny players I have had the pleasure to game with.  The years go on, some players drift away and new ones arrive.  I will not hold it against the newer players simply that they were not playing before 2000.  It doesn't matter that they never knew Nib's area - a real shame that they didn't get to explore it, but it doesn't detract from their personal value to the mud.

I look forward to helping each new generation of players come into the Mud and find it an enjoyable experience.  I might need them to help me get around when I am wielding my sword from a wheelchair in my venerable years!

[Sharky]

Just wanted to say that my previous note wasn't referring to Qwer, but to a particular category of mud players.

OK.... so if the Jacksonville Jaguars are known as the "Jags" and the Tampa Bay Buccaneers are known as the "Bucs," what does that make the Tennessee Titans?

Hmmm.... *thinking hard* The Tenesees?  

[Qwer]

the way you presented things it appeared as though it's ok to killsteal as long as you have the "I was just role-playing" excuse.

If it was this simple, don't you think I would've come up with a similar, short sentence?

If it's not obvious enough, I'll confess: I never went to the graveyard to steal the rabbits from a newbie that just logged on first time and was sent there. No, I don't enjoy doing it. And no, I can't understand why is there such a big deal about this.
If someone can't play masters, then go to druids or knights. This is how I put it. It's simple as that. Some guilds are newbie-friendly by definition, others, less. Anyway killstealing is not necessarily related to newbies, I believe.
If I don't help a newbie that doesn't mean I trick them to become pk and kill them. Luckily, usually there are people online who is supposed to be are newbie-friendly enough; I usually direct new people to ask a druid or a knight. And I don't feel ashamed about it. At least I'm not a hypocrite...

[Hellspawn]

And so it started...

Russ:

Most of the time, when someone steals a kill, they do it by accident, due to forgetting to do a shape. However, for someone to steal a kill, then completely ignore all tells etc. I find extremely rude. Just a simple sorry would be nice, but that is obviously too much trouble for some people!  

Its a shame there isn't a list of people who behave in such a way so that they can be named and shamed!

Qwer:

Why a 'sorry' would be necessary?

How would a dark or a vampire look to apologize to a knight, or a druid? Hell, my dark fought darks, and I didn't feel ashamed about it, even if it isn't a common practice. No char should steal but there are some that can do it once in a while. I have chars that never check shape, and perhaps if I do see that the monster is like, in the first hb, fair shape, I just continue. If I bothered to attack it I won't leave. In the worst case I just give the loot back or even the loot twice or 3 times in money, but I might just ignore the whiner. In many cases I just finish the kill and go for another one, and noone complains. It depends on the player.

So strange for me that u guys dont get the big picture.

As I see it, Qwer was not saying that the roleplaying is an excuse for killstealing, the discussion was about players having to excuse themself for killstealing, and in the meaning of roleplaying some of us dont realy have to, as a dark excusing to anyone for stealing a kill, on purpose or not, seems unfit for me, and I wont do that. And that's all I see 'bout roleplayng in this mather.

None is saying that he/she is looking to steal allready weakened monsters, but let's admit it we'we all done it and it's not like some of us dont enjoy it , killstealing is just another way of making kills easyer, faster . And in the mather of scaring the newbs away I say HUH??? I realy wanna see a newb that attacks the kind of monsters that I consider worth while. I usualy check the monster's shape before I attack, but if it is in superior or wery good shape I kill it fast and have no regrets. It also can happen that I'm in a "rush" and attack the monster and he dies before I can see a shapeinfo. That is annoying and I always leave the corpse "as it is" (with the loot intact) there. But if the player that attacked him before me complains 'bout it I usualy ignore him  or advice him go **** himself depending on the mood.