Great players, wtf is that?

[Carrion]

hehe Wrath, remember him setting up a client that ran all night that went to middle-earth to kill that infinite spawn kill there, recall, heal, sell, raise stats and such, and repeat  

Heh, I try to imagine player NOT cheating, makes me feel better But these small stories are very interesting, perhaps we should create a new thread, where we write about some well-known players, and some stuff they did that isn't as well-known!

[Kymn]

Heh, I try to imagine player NOT cheating, makes me feel better But these small stories are very interesting, perhaps we should create a new thread, where we write about some well-known players, and some stuff they did that isn't as well-known!

Aye, sorry bout that

[Maggs]

I agree with you, Carrion, that achievements of Wizards far outweigh
those of mortals (in my mind).

The prime example for me is Michel. His Finger plans (which contributed
to getting him banshed), were, to me, an exercise in self indulgence -
numerous michel1....michelnn plans saying how great he was. To me,
however, his greatest impact was Parity's area - which was really good.

M

[Maggs]

Historically, I have respect for what Gerritt achieved. He was the first
(I think), to solve all the quests.

More recently, I was really fond of Kytten. She was a player that
achieved lots, and was always helpful and respectful. She persuaded
Barb to make me the last monk GM, and encouraged me all the way there.

As of for now it would have to be Bombadill. He worked ever so hard to
get to where he is, and has always made the cult a pleasure to play,
regardless of your level or experience of playing.

Note that the players that I respect are those that share (to some extent)
my own play style - funny that

Maggs

[Escaflowne]

Let's do some defining. What is it we are measuring? Not greatness; ability.

A great player is a player of exceptional (great) ability.

Therefore, for the concept "great player" to have any meaning, there has to be a diversity in what players can and cannot do, so that there can be exceptions to the regular player in order to make great players. This requires the MUD to have enough depth to accomodate the diversity. To assume that there are such things as "great players", then, you have to go on the premise that the MUD has sufficient depth to it.

A player who doesn't know the true depth of the MUD, cannot comprehend the existence of great players. If certain things do not exist for him then they do not exist for others, he thinks, and so they don't have any means to better him.

A great player is someone who knows what a great player is, because he shares the same level understanding of the game and can appreciate the neccessary existence of such understanding. No player shares his level of understanding better than with himself. Consequently, a player can gauge his own ability better than anyone elses. A great player doesn't need to be told he is a great player, because he knows it.

Gauging someone elses ability is much harder. If they are better than you, you won't necessarily know it. For them to be better than you, they have to know things you don't and can do things you can't. For them to know things you don't and do things you can't, they have to have the means to do that, which means, there has to exist depth and dimensions to the game that you have not discovered, and perhaps cannot conceive of. Which means, should these players exist which know things you don't and can do things you can't, there exists depth to the game which you do not necessarily know exists. Which means, you cannot appreciate the existence of players better than yourself, and to you, great players will not and can not exist.

For great players, the same is true, but substitute "great" for greater, where they will substitute "me" for "better than me".

Doing things you can not, does not include, for example, achieveing Paragon level 20, because any fool can do it if they play long enough. However, it does include killing killer-monster-X without healing, weapons or armour, or achieveing Paragon level 20 in 10 seconds. You get the idea.

What i'm really trying to say is great players are enigma's.

[Snafu]

Well said.

/Snafu

[Terin]

I hate to bump an "old" thread, but I always hated people that used speedwalks and other macro programs, they are the reason a lot of things got changed that made it harder for people who liked to rely on their own skill, rather than on their ability to program a macro. Rharc, and a couple others who used speedwalks and macro's are the reason that Khornes got changed, because it was too easy for people to remain KiP. (yes, I had a discussion about this a long time ago with certain people in charge of the guild).

To me, a macro/speedwalk is a cheat, a hack, a crutch for people who can't figure out how to play the game on their own skill. Another good example of how this affected the game is Knights, Vampires, PK'ing, Lepers with their stench clouds. If you have played these guilds, if you have played those types of encounters, you know what I mean.

I was legendary when it was deemed impossible for a non-Lysator knight to get there (without speedwalks). I typed my way through everything, I never used macro's. My Darkie took heads average 96% of the time, using just usual hotkeys and typing (i.e. in game aliases) I managed to maintain KiP about 90% of the time before they changed Khornes to be dynamic, and then it was impossible. I type at an average of 100wpm atm, and its still impossible for me to maintain KiP with my Khorne.

I could go on, but to me, the challenge lies in my abilites vs other players, or my abilites vs the wizards. Truely "great" players are those that master those challenges, and are good at them, without requiring crutches. If you don't understand what I mean, disable your macro's, disable your speedwalks, disable any 2nd party programs, and try the game with just your skill vs others and the envirment around you. You will see how much of a crutch they are.

[Carrion]

I hate to bump an "old" thread

No excuses needed, on the contrary, I _thank_ you!

To me, a macro/speedwalk is a cheat, a hack, a crutch for people who can't figure out how to play the game on their own skill. Another good example of how this affected the game is Knights, Vampires, PK'ing, Lepers with their stench clouds. If you have played these guilds, if you have played those types of encounters, you know what I mean.

Excellent, this is really a sight for my old eyes... As one of the elderly players, I definitely understand your point... When I started playing NannyMUD I didn't have a client, not even telnet... I played by mailing (you know, envelope and stamp and all that...) my moves to a friend that had that crutch (the telnet one)...  Harry was very annoying then, I can tell you!

Ahem... Well, somewhat ironic, but most, if not all, of us elderly players played our first years using telnet. Padrone's MUD frontend was an option, but I don't think I ever used it seriously... And I could also type a whole bunch of 'w' and 's' pretty quickly Plus 'k' and 'od' and stuff... Didn't see that as skill though, not in the sense of a 'great player' anyway...

I actually don't see that using a client with speedwalks would make you less a 'great' player, if you made those speedwalks yourself... If you're using some configuration someone else has created, and just push the keys 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 to get a lot of XP cash and solve 3 quests without knowing what you were doing, THAT would indeed make you look like a pretty crappy player

One of the greatest (sic!) advantages for me with speedwalks, is that I take a lot of strain off my shoulder, and it obviously makes it somewhat less boring (perhaps, not sure really) when you're trying to achieve a relatively high position in most guilds (yes, having a greater demon keeping KiP all the time definitely is easier using speedwalks...).

Ooops, perhaps I went astray here, but I agree that the 'good' players are those that are good at playing NannyMUD... But 'great'... I'm not sure... Give me some hard facts about one or two great players (perhaps you're one of them?) and I'll digest that...

[Hewe]

what player knows Nanny?: Oriole

that I know from the TAG club

[Escaflowne]

I think perhaps when clients first became available, it would be appropriate to consider speedwalking a form of cheating. But nowadays it is so commonplace that it would be better to consider NOT speedwalking a selective handicap. The MUD has been designed in a way that takes speedwalking into account, and you can no longer get very far in certain guilds, or solve certain problems, without taking advantage of what your client has to offer.

Plus typing burns calories. I used to not use speedwalks at all for the first year of playing, but that was merely because I was too lazy and too eager to play to make the necessary preperations. Now I have, I could never stand going back.

[spamfu]

I remember the old days of pasting a series of commands into a telnet window. I never really used clients and I never wanted to

/Spamfu

[draculea]

Hey!

Let's get this thread back on line, shall we?
I think great players can be defined very simply and it's what makes the admins "lousy players".
It's the ability to atract newbies or fairly new players into trying to discover the inner secrets
of Nanny. This could be making them explore or quest or player killing or being better knights,
or vampires or whatever ( by this I mean role playing ). By giving them the incentive to try
and be a lot better in those activities I have mentioned above.
I think that's what makes a great player. Of course, take Polar for example, he is considered
a great player in druids. Take Selindor for example, a great example of chivalry and the list can
go on.
If you want to find a great player overall, I think that might be a bit hard. Because, as Esca said,
the truly great ones are not known to people. They are there, in almost everything, with
great characters in almost every guild, with superior mud knowledge and quest points, with
good pk abilities, but we don't KNOW it!

So, I would define truly great players as the ones that make the great players still go on!

[Carrion]

Hey!

Let's get this thread back on line, shall we?
I think great players can be defined very simply and it's what makes the admins "lousy players".
It's the ability to atract newbies or fairly new players into trying to discover the inner secrets
of Nanny. This could be making them explore or quest or player killing or being better knights,
or vampires or whatever ( by this I mean role playing ). By giving them the incentive to try
and be a lot better in those activities I have mentioned above.
I think that's what makes a great player. Of course, take Polar for example, he is considered
a great player in druids. Take Selindor for example, a great example of chivalry and the list can
go on.
If you want to find a great player overall, I think that might be a bit hard. Because, as Esca said,
the truly great ones and not known to people. They are there, in almost everything, with
great characters in almost every guild, with superior mud knowledge and quest points, with
good pk abilities, but we don't KNOW it!

So, I would define truly great players as the ones that make the great players still go on!

Ah, nice twist there draculea!

[Kherec]

Regarding speedwalks. I'm one of those who started off playing nanny in telnet, the kind who had his fingers bleed from all the damn typing in those knight-attacks ... so I know where Terin is coming from. I don't, however, see it as a 'mud skill' to be able to rock the mud playing through telnet.

Speedwalking doesn't make a person a better or worse player, per se. Speedwalking may result in the player becoming lazy, forgetting where things are. But that's not a rule (some forget, some remember, has more to do with the player than it has to do with the client). Taking the car to work doesn't mean you forget how to walk, it just means taking the car is faster

If we're going back to what defines a 'great' player, I still think it is someone who knows all guilds, how they interact and how to make them work (not just max out, but know how to play the guild efficiently, well as much as possible anyway). As for game-achievements, I think exploring the mud, questing and solving puzzles is a direct measure. Xp on the other hand ... not quite. While it takes a lot of endurance and dedication to grind to the point where you reach the higher paragon levels, does it require skill? No. It could be skill, mind, not saying those with high paragon levels are lousy players, but their high levels in themselves, are not a measure of skill.

Few people have the time to become great players though. Some may master a few guilds, but hardly all of them, it's just too time-consuming a task to pull off.

Then there's the fact that we have no idea what other people know, and unless they brag about it or show off in various way ... we'd be none the wiser *grins*.

[draculea]

  You know ... we wouldn't have all those high paragon levels if it weren't for you truly great ones to entertain us while doing it